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  1. #41
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    Here we go again. I typed a reply and this fuckin' thing won't take it!

  2. #42
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    Pascal's Wager is a fallacy. It's more than "If I do believe, then I won't go to Hell if it's true" because it neglects the thousands of other gods. What if it's Zeus, Krishna, Odin, Quetzacoatl? Even if you do say the Judeo-Christian god, that's no guarantee because there are dozens and dozens of sects underneath that.

    Pascal's Wager, it's not that simple now, is it - Imgur.jpg
    Ready, Eddie!

  3. #43
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    Hi Doc,
    Full disclosure…I am selectively religious…I believe when I am facing death. Do I believe in an actual faith? No.

    I do not believe in the devil. Always saw that as man trying to blame someone else for his actions. Every single time I did something other people, myself included, might consider “bad” I did so fully aware of the choice I was making.

    Stuff does get created out of nothing all the time…which is why I mentioned that physics…specifically quantum physics… leaves the door wide open for someone to argue in favor of a “god”.

    The ultimate problem however with evolution and reconciling it with the bible or any text from an Abrahamic faith is simply the torah. Pure logic…if the torah is wrong or false then anything that seeks validation from it is also false. The torah pretty much blows it in chapter one.

    As for being punished for not believing despite being a good person…I can’t accept that a supreme and perfect being would be so petty and demand more than a mafia don would. He could have left some proof…he proved to people once so why not again? Maybe the formula for the cure for cancer in a book written thousands of years ago…

    Unfortunately…I have some concept of not being alive…every single moment prior to my birth. Nothing... Lost consciousness too...nothing...blinked and it was hours later. Know people that were "dead"...same thing...nothing.

    If the reasoning is “what have I got to lose?” I have to ask…what if I choose the wrong one? And make no mistake about it…I would only be interested out of self interest.

    It’s like demanding someone love you while holding a gun to their head. I would prefer it be something the chose when they stand nothing to gain and nothing to lose…a free choice.

    But having said that I would always prefer those who are good over those who are immoral yet always ask for forgiveness…

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arson View Post
    Hi Doc,
    Full disclosure…I am selectively religious…I believe when I am facing death. Do I believe in an actual faith? No.

    I do not believe in the devil. Always saw that as man trying to blame someone else for his actions. Every single time I did something other people, myself included, might consider “bad” I did so fully aware of the choice I was making.

    Stuff does get created out of nothing all the time…which is why I mentioned that physics…specifically quantum physics… leaves the door wide open for someone to argue in favor of a “god”.

    The ultimate problem however with evolution and reconciling it with the bible or any text from an Abrahamic faith is simply the torah. Pure logic…if the torah is wrong or false then anything that seeks validation from it is also false. The torah pretty much blows it in chapter one.

    As for being punished for not believing despite being a good person…I can’t accept that a supreme and perfect being would be so petty and demand more than a mafia don would. He could have left some proof…he proved to people once so why not again? Maybe the formula for the cure for cancer in a book written thousands of years ago…

    Unfortunately…I have some concept of not being alive…every single moment prior to my birth. Nothing... Lost consciousness too...nothing...blinked and it was hours later. Know people that were "dead"...same thing...nothing.

    If the reasoning is “what have I got to lose?” I have to ask…what if I choose the wrong one? And make no mistake about it…I would only be interested out of self interest.

    It’s like demanding someone love you while holding a gun to their head. I would prefer it be something the chose when they stand nothing to gain and nothing to lose…a free choice.

    But having said that I would always prefer those who are good over those who are immoral yet always ask for forgiveness…
    That is what God did. He gave us free choice. There are rules and consequences for both. Just like in any other relationship we have ever been in. I don't believe because I'm hedging my bets. I believe because I know He exists. Most people that believe in God and go to church regularly don't go around being immoral and asking for forgiveness afterward. They/We try to live as good as lives as we can all of the time. knowing we are human and will slip up from time to time. God knows we are imperfect, as long as we keep trying.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Roth View Post
    I'm going to start out by saying I'm not going to get into an argument over this. I've made many posts on this subject. I also have a bachelors of arts degree with a biology major and chemistry minor to go along with my DDS. I've sat threw more science classes than most of you combined. With that out of the way let me try to answer some questions from my view point.

    First and for most. God does exist, He created the universe and everything in it. Jesus is His Son and He came to Earth to die for our sins. He gave us the perfect gift and all you have to do is accept it, or not. Science will never disprove His existance. Yes, we are getting smarter and learning more and more about ourselves and the universe in general. That doesn't mean we know it all. You can't create something out of nothing, it is impossible and the laws of physics prove it.

    I understand evolution, it makes perfect sense. It also doesn't disprove the creation story in the Bible. The word for created in Greek can be translated either as created OR recreated. It is very possible that the earth is as old as scientist say. Plants and animals could have evolved from the primordial ooze billions of years ago. Humans could have evolved from monkeys, though I doubt it. We share close to 99% of the same DNA, but that last 1% must be a dandy. I see the evolution from cromagnon threw neanderthal to homo habilus, but where is the jump from them to us? There isn't any. For a minute let's believe the Bible story. If we translate the ancient Greek as re-created it makes more sense. God could have made the earth originally billions of years ago(He exists outside of time). He created the universe and everything else and set it in motion. Who says he didn't create cromagnon, or the other prehistoric "people". I think He did, I think about 6,000 years ago he recreated the world and put us here by creating Adam and Eve. The Bible story would date us back about then, the ancient civilizations are all younger than that. Historians can prove Moses was real, as was Jesus. Scientists have not found the missing link between homo sapiens and whatever came before us. The reason is there isn't a link, don't you think if there was one some paleantologist somewhere would have found it by now?

    Like AJ, I believe God exists. I believe He sent His only Son down to us to die for our sins. I believe Jesus rose from the dead and accended into Heaven. I also believe Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead. God gave us free will to decide on our own to love Him or not. He could of made us little drones that loved him unconditionally no matter what. I think He didn't because He knew that would be a false love, and where is the fun in that. We all have the ability to go to Heaven, but all of us won't go. God wants us to believe in Him with no "concrete proof". In the Old Testament He revealed Himself to the Isrealites often, this was during the Age of Law, getting to Heaven then was a lot more difficult. After Jesus came and died it has become a whole lote easier. Jesus said, "Blessed are the ones that beleive, but haven't seen." He made this response to Thomas, the disciple that wouldn't believe He had risen from the dead until he could put his fingers into the nail holes. This is where the term "Doubting Thomas" came from.

    I think it is easier to not believe. It is easier to live your life by being a "good person" without the weight of God on your shoulders. It is easier to not go to church every week. To me faith is hard. Faith in God takes work. There are times when my faith is questioned, but to me that is the Devil trying to worm his way into my life. I'm not perfect, far from it. I try to live my life the best way I know how. I stumble every day, but I get back up and move forward.

    If you don't believe in God, do you guys believe the Devil exists? Because with out God there would be no Devil.

    My last point in this rambling post is this. The Devil wants you to think that God doesn't exist. Satan wants you to think the way you are, because when you die that is that much more company he will have. You all know the saying about misery liking company. The Devil is the King of this world. This is his domain. Don't you think he would make it as easy as possible for you to not believe in God? It is to late after you die. God won't let you in for being a good person, but not believing in Him. He wants people in Heaven that want to be there. He wants people in Heaven that love Him and listened to His teachings. God wants everyone ever created to be with him in Heaven, just like parents want the best for their children. But just like children, we have the ability to make up our own minds. I've said this before, but it begs repeating. I can be wrong about this. I can go my entire life believing and when I die there is nothing. My only loss is "wasting time" in that beleif. If I'm right I hopefully go to be with Him in Paradise. If you don't believe and there is nothing at the end so what, but if there is? Well, I hope you take your sun block. Just like tattoos, Hell is forever.

    Doc
    Um. If people didn't believe in a god, why would they believe in a devil? It seems to be that people mistake atheists and the like for Satanists.

    Second, science is a slow and steady progression of gaining knowledge. Just because science doesn't have a reason for a specific event or an answer to a question doesn't mean it's wrong or that it'll never find it. There have been lots of discoveries in the last century about the origins of humanity, we've only begun to piece things together, we're not going to find an answer immediately. So to say that there isn't a link is way too early to dismiss it, as scientists have found lots in the last few decades. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer in the scientific community.

    Thirdly, remains of homo sapiens have been found and been dated to be over 50, 000 years old, which would kind of negate the "6,000 years old" premise.
    Ready, Eddie!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVH_Erupted View Post
    Pascal's Wager is a fallacy. It's more than "If I do believe, then I won't go to Hell if it's true" because it neglects the thousands of other gods. What if it's Zeus, Krishna, Odin, Quetzacoatl? Even if you do say the Judeo-Christian god, that's no guarantee because there are dozens and dozens of sects underneath that.

    Pascal's Wager, it's not that simple now, is it - Imgur.jpg
    ^^^^
    That's hysterical, I love it!
    It just points home how ridiculous I find the whole thing.

    I'm damned for eternity for not believing in the god of my heredity?
    What about all those other gods and religions?

    That question always messed with our religion teachers.
    What about other religions? We'd ask...
    Do they go to hell for not believing?

    What about people from around the world who never heard of our god?

    Sometimes the teachers (depending on the teacher) said yes!
    They said that those people were damned!

    There is always such positive hype about the journey to spiritualality.
    I'll tell you, nothing is more posistve and enlightening than the journey away from it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVH_Erupted View Post
    Um. If people didn't believe in a god, why would they believe in a devil? It seems to be that people mistake atheists and the like for Satanists.

    Second, science is a slow and steady progression of gaining knowledge. Just because science doesn't have a reason for a specific event or an answer to a question doesn't mean it's wrong or that it'll never find it. There have been lots of discoveries in the last century about the origins of humanity, we've only begun to piece things together, we're not going to find an answer immediately. So to say that there isn't a link is way too early to dismiss it, as scientists have found lots in the last few decades. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer in the scientific community.

    Thirdly, remains of homo sapiens have been found and been dated to be over 50, 000 years old, which would kind of negate the "6,000 years old" premise.
    ^^^^
    Yes, all that - and there is nothing wrong with saying "We don't know."
    Or, "We don't know yet."

    We don't know all the answers, and ther will always be more things to discover and learn.
    That's what makes the journey and wonders of life so amazing!
    There is so much to discover!

    I've always found it disturbing, and telling that Adam and Eve were not to eat from the tree of knowlege.
    Keep the people dumb!
    Tell 'em God said not to eat (gain) knowledge!
    Tell them that if they seek it (knowledge) that it is the devils work!

    I believe that part is written into the book to keep the people afraid.
    Afraid and under the thumb of the religious heirarchy.

    If one is afraid of eternal damnation they are going to be terrified to question the authorities.
    A little persecution here on Earth doesn't hurt to keep the masses in their place either.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incomudro View Post
    ^^^^
    That's hysterical, I love it!
    It just points home how ridiculous I find the whole thing.

    I'm damned for eternity for not believing in the god of my heredity?
    What about all those other gods and religions?

    That question always messed with our religion teachers.
    What about other religions? We'd ask...
    Do they go to hell for not believing?

    What about people from around the world who never heard of our god?

    Sometimes the teachers (depending on the teacher) said yes!
    They said that those people were damned!

    There is always such positive hype about the journey to spiritualality.
    I'll tell you, nothing is more posistve and enlightening than the journey away from it.
    Reminds me of a joke. So a priest was out preaching and proselytizing out in Alaska to a Inuit/eskimo tribe. One of the Inuits speaks up and says, "If we didn't know about God and sin, would we still go to hell?"

    The priest replies, "No, not if you did not know."

    To which the Inuit goes," Then why did you tell us?"
    Ready, Eddie!

  9. #49
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    Believe in a god or suffer eternal damnation is not a choice.

    It is a threat.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Roth View Post
    That is what God did. He gave us free choice. There are rules and consequences for both. Just like in any other relationship we have ever been in. I don't believe because I'm hedging my bets. I believe because I know He exists. Most people that believe in God and go to church regularly don't go around being immoral and asking for forgiveness afterward. They/We try to live as good as lives as we can all of the time. knowing we are human and will slip up from time to time. God knows we are imperfect, as long as we keep trying.
    I understand...and I didn't mean to suggest you were doing it for less than sincere reasons...I only express my opinions on it. I would be doing it out of self interest.

    My belief is that if I am to be judged it will be based on my actions, character and morality only. My reason being only that is how I operate...it's what I "know". I could never do something if I was not sincere.

    I agree that our freedom is by way of birth...it is our natural state and not granted by anyone or any group.

 

 

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